Trigger questions

[t1m2n3t4]

 Hello! 
  I hope I'm writing in the correct section. I have some questions that have been bugging me long enough. I thought it's time to ask.
 Unit attributes in the object panel are a lot more than those in the effect panel but for some reason (fairly) useless. When I make triggers, the effect should be from the effect panel. So how can I use a unit attribute from the object panel? I'm especially interested in:
- Total Cruise Altitude -> I want to make planes fly higher
- Total Tile Size (I suppose this is the number of tiles a unit takes on the map) -> rescaled units may look bigger but that's just a graphic effect. If those units are close to each other, they intersect one another. Same goes for rescaled buildings. Can tile size be of any help? 
- How to make the tank shell explode when hitting enemy targets? That is, how to add animation "Explosion" to a unit that has been shot by a tank.
 Thanks in advance!
----
EDIT: OK, I've figured out how to make the explosion appear when a unit is shot by a tank. But I can't make it appear ONLY when the unit is shot. It's either once, or looping until the unit is destroyed.

[Shieldwolf]

Hi! Welcome to EC!

As to your question, sadly, the option of graphic effects when a unit is only shot at is (currently) not known to be possible. It is, you can see, in the Effects section "Graphic Effect" only, so they were put there for aesthetic reasons alone. Someone may come up with a complex trigger system, but right now, that trigger system is yet to be discovered or created.

[t1m2n3t4]

Thank you!
I see. The game devs should've made a more thorough explanation on the trigger system, not slapdash it. All they did was write "This is for this and that - for that". And how can the gamers can do all of this - figure it out yourself! Luckily, there are places like EE Heaven and sotyscndesign.
About the tank thingy. Is there a way to make the shell explosion appear once, when the unit dies?
IF unit(marine) doesn't exist THEN graphic effect(explosion) doesn't seem to work.
Second, in the object panel - stance "attackenemyunit" doesn't work either. Neither in the AoC, nor in the original game.
And last - do you know how to work with Total Cruise Altitude and Total Tile Size?

P.S. Shieldwolf, I saw your reply on EEheavengames. Thanks! I decided to pose my questions on both places, just in case. I think here people are more active and there are more trigger tricks explained.

[Shieldwolf]

Jun 24, 2013 9:37:38 GMT t1m2n3t4 said:

Thank you!
I see. The game devs should've made a more thorough explanation on the trigger system, not slapdash it. All they did was write "This is for this and that - for that". And how can the gamers can do all of this - figure it out yourself! Luckily, there are places like EE Heaven and sotyscndesign.
About the tank thingy. Is there a way to make the shell explosion appear once, when the unit dies?
IF unit(marine) doesn't exist THEN graphic effect(explosion) doesn't seem to work.
Second, in the object panel - stance "attackenemyunit" doesn't work either. Neither in the AoC, nor in the original game.
And last - do you know how to work with Total Cruise Altitude and Total Tile Size?

P.S. Shieldwolf, I saw your reply on EEheavengames. Thanks! I decided to pose my questions on both places, just in case. I think here people are more active and there are more trigger tricks explained.

No worries, I also replied first there, and then, replied here.

As to the stances, and unit attributes under the Objects section, there are a lot of them that is currently not working (as far as the community knowledge goes by). For instance, all of those 3 are not working AFAIK = attackenemyunit, total cruise altitue and total tile size. As to the tank explosion, you can achieve this by designating a hitpoint marker, say if the tank is 1 to 5% HP, then, graphic effect explosion, and then kill tank. That way, you can control both the explosion and the killing of the tank, as you intended it to be.

[t1m2n3t4]

Hmm... that's what I thought. Although yesterday I toyed around with total tile size. When I set values from 1 to 30 I think, and set an effect(create object), the game lagged very hard then froze. Soon after the PC froze.
Actually, I want to make the marine explode. The tank's destruction is an explosion by default. But I'll try your idea now and I'll write the results.

EDIT: It works! But as you know the tank has to shoot 2-3 times to kill a marine. So in the object panel for the marine I set HP min(20) max(360 or so). And now, when a tank shoots a marine once, there's an explosion and the marine dies.  As for the unit attributes in the object panel, here are my thoughts: The game has set values for HP, total cruise altitude and so on. And they cannot be altered. The max in percent would be 100%, clearly. So all we can do is actually set ranges, intervals for those set values. For instance, you cannot increase the marine HP from the object panel. Setting it min/max to 99999 won't make the unit have this much HP. Instead setting it to, say, min(20) max(150) will only be regarded as a setting for a condition. Meaning, you'll use that object with this HP range, interval for your trigger which will have an effect. And that effect will work only when this condition is met. To sum it up, the unit attribute in the object panel can be regarded as an additional condition option. That's how I understand it. Hope it makes sense to you. 

EDIT2: Is there a way to make explosion craters appear? Like those when the artillery or nuclear bomb are firing.
 And adding area of effect. It would be nice if it could be done with triggers solely, but I didn't see any attributes regarding it. As for the EE Unit Editor - for the units which don't have area of effect, the option is grayed.

EDIT3: But there IS a problem. For some reason if the tank exists, even if it's not shooting, marines get blown away by other units that are attacking them. I set the unit "tank" stance to "wait for reload" since the "attack unit" doesn't work.
 The explosion effect doesn't work for units that have HP equal or less than the Attack of the tank. If I want the tank to shoot a bowman, how can I make the animation appear when he dies?
 Argh! Everything got messed up. For some strange reason this tank shot explosion works best for ranged infantry. If I use it for other types of infantry, the other effects I've set for them get messed up. Graphic scale, to be exact.

[Shieldwolf]

The Objects Section was always meant as another set Condition, and of course, the "object" of your Effects in the Effects section. It is not where you alter a unit's attributes (unless you are creating that unit from triggers), so yep, your idea of it as an additional condition is correct.

As to the craters, I remember Soty doing some graphical effects using those, but personally, I have not tried them. Maybe Soty can teach you how to. The marine's HP, since it is a condition set only for the marine, will always fire if for any reason, his HP is within your specified condition. Try changing the Object Specification as within LOS of a Tank, and you'll have a marine dying only when a tank is near him. What specifically is the problem with the graphic scale?

[t1m2n3t4]

Well, you see. I have an object(priest). I have made a trigger in which
IF priest exists
THEN Rescale and Resource attribute
meaning it will be smaller and will remain after getting killed
Note: In the object panel I set HP min 0% max 99% for the priest. And I've made another trigger:
IF tank exist(stance set to "wait for reload")
THEN explosion effect AND kill priest
The idea is clear - if the tank shoots once, the priest will get killed with an explosion. That happens because the tank has stance "wait for reload".
Problem occurs in that second trigger which messes up the first one. When I start the game, the priest is normal size. And when the tank shoots him, he gets rescaled, as it should in the first trigger, and dies with an explosion. But the unit has to be rescaled in the very beginning. 

 EDIT: I found out how - I need to create another object (priest) with min/max HP and assign the explosion/kill effects to it. And leave the initial object(priest) for the separate - rescale and resource attribute effect. Although it's strange why I have to do this for any other units except for ranged infantry.
==============
What is the difference between LOS/Near/Range?
 And last night I tried another thing - when bombers attack to instantly kill infantry. I set the object "bomber" to stance "wait for reload".
IF bomber exists
THEN kill infantry

 But it doesn't work. I assume it's because of the bomber stance. This "wait for reload" is different for planes compared to ground/naval units.

P.S. So it's possible to use explosion craters in a scenario just as a graphic effect? Although they're not selectable when you save a game in the scenario with flying shell and then loading it to click and move it around.

Just found out:
*Trigger with many conditions and effects doesn't work (well)
--------------------------------------------------
Final edit:
 No. The tank explosion thing isn't ok. If I place a tank to shoot enemy building, while infantry or citizens(depends to whom I've applied the explosion and kill effect) are being attacked by, let's say, a tiger - the units die. Hmm.... I don't know how to specify if the units are taking damage specifically from the tank.

And another thing.
Take a look at this: >>> Screenshot <<<
Now THAT looks more like a city with buildings.

Is it possible to make the enlarged building a solid object? As you may know, if a unit is being enlarged, it's only a graphic effect, and if two enlarged units are close to each other, they intersect.
So, is there a way to make citizens build big and solid buildings? If it has something to do with tile size, how does it work?

P.S. I'm sorry if I'm getting annoying with all the questions. They've been bothering me ever since I thought about trying to make these ideas reality. 

[Shieldwolf]

No worries about the questions, just be sure that you avoid making "absolute assumptions", and phrase it as politely as you can. Someone might get offended on how you make your sentences, you know. Now, as to your questions:

Every object you put into a condition, if you plan on using it more than once, should have all the attributes you want it to possess in order for it to be useful for all the triggers you want it to be into. Meaning, if you have an object with minimum HP, you get to use that object for that minimum HP alone. However, if in another trigger, you want to use a Resource Attribute inside the same object, and for any reason, you DID NOT set this attribute on your previous object, then, that effect won't fire. To make a long story short, you need to have specific objects set for each trigger condition, if you want them to fire according to your wishes.

LOS = Line of Sight. This is basically the area wherein a unit can "see", the same thing you have when you have one unit and it clears the games' fog of war.

Near = Self explanatory.

Range = A little less than LOS, the range is the units' number of tiles for the unit's weapon to reach the enemy. Try to think of this as that unit's effective killzone.

Wait for Reload = Means you are about to attack (reloading).

You can't have units specifically targeting other units, while ignoring the rest. In this case, since your object HP conditions are met whenever a tiger manages to attack the object, the trigger will fire. That is one of the limitations of that effect. Again, that is why it is in the Graphics Effect section, it is just there to be pretty.

And buddy, may I request you post how you made your triggers? I have a concern that some of your triggers and object specifications should be working, for but one or two mistakes. As to the building resizes, I've answered the question over in EEH.

[t1m2n3t4]

Thanks! I think I understand what you mean about the objects and conditions.
Take a look at the attachments. I even got something like poster ready for the trigger pack which I'm planning on uploading here and on EEHeaven. Hopefully soon because I'm starting to get impatient.
* It's for AoC.

Edit: Attachments removed.

[Shieldwolf]

Number One rule in scenario design: Be Patient!

Seriously, every designer at one point or another becomes totally impatient in finishing what they are doing, but it's always better to wait and have your work pending if the quality you have right now is not a quality you may want to let others see. So, better late, than sloppy.

As to your working in AoC, let me remind you that AoC's scenario editor is inferior vs. the vanilla, so yep, the rest of us here in EC would rather do our things in EE vanilla. I don't have AoC installed with me, so sorry, I can't see those triggers of yours.

[t1m2n3t4]

Ah, well, initially I started these trigger experiments with the Vanilla. A week after I got hooked up and thought that if I'll do a big trigger compilation, I'd rather have it for the expansion due to the extras. At that time I wasn't aware of the fact that AoC is buggy than EE. And maybe if I did, perhaps I still would've sticked with AoC.

*Scenario Triggers.scn for EE aren't fully compatible with those of AoC. They are present, when loaded in the editor, but the details in the drop-down menus are different, messed up but that's the only problem as far as I know. Every other option is ok. I found that out when I transfered part of my work to AoC. 

I converted the trigger pack to EE Vanilla. In fact, now I'll upload the trigger mod for both versions. That's a good idea actually. More people will be able to test it, and I'll get more feedback on it. But I'll upload the pack as it is, without those tank explosion effects, and rescaled buildings(since they're not working as I want.). Still, what I already have prepared is quite something and I hope it'll resparkle the interest of EE gamers.

 Since here, on EC, you're using EE Vanilla, is it OK for me to upload that AoC trigger mod?
And can you tell me what are the bugs in the AoC Editor compared to the vanilla? So far I only know about that thing where when you fill a transport with units, you have to delete the whole transport if you place a wrong unit. Haven't tried it though.

Edit:
Shieldwolf, here's the pack for EE Vanilla with the explosion experiment at the bottom of the trigger list. Have a look at the triggers and let me know what you think.
   I think I accidentally got the explosion effect to work. I forgot to add the min/max HP for the infantry in the object panel while creating the effect for Vanilla. If it works like I want it to, then I'll postpone the uploading of the trigger pack a little and add some major updates. For both Vanilla and AoC. But I have to be patient a little bit more. See if it really does work under any conditions, various settings and other units.

Edit: Attachments removed.

[Shieldwolf]

I'll check it then.

EDIT:

It's not opening in the scen editor. Did you recreate the triggers in vanilla?

[t1m2n3t4]

I did.
 Open the Scenario Editor, and press Ctrl+L. This is a trigger pack, not a scenario. The idea for it is to be used for ANY scenario.
====
How peculiar!
"IF B-2 Bomber exists
THEN Kill infantry ranged"
This simple triggers seems to work like a charm. The interesting part is that in the object panel there is no specified stance or anything. Just the object itself is specified. And what happens is that the bomber wipes out the infantry in one hit. OK.
Also, when I create a trigger for the tank shell explosions and a separate one which includes only
"IF Thor AT Gun exists
THEN Kill infantry ranged"
what happens is that the effects for tank explosion trigger apply for the Thor AT Gun trigger too. And I haven't assigned additional effects for Thor AT Gun. Weird.

[Shieldwolf]

I know, it is a Trigger Pack, so it is obviously not a game. Here's what. Could you save your scenario with a different name, and just forward the .SCN file (without the text file)? As to the Bomber and the Thor AT, if those are simple "IF EXIST" conditions, then the explosions effect will fire, regardless of the existence of the tank, since your infantry range doesn't really need it to be near a tank. What the scenario editor recognizes is that if the bomber or the Thor exists, then, it will have the Explosion-Kill effect.

[t1m2n3t4]

No, no. The bomber does exist but it's existence by itself doesn't kill all the ranged infantry on the map. It kills them only when the bomber drops the bombs and ONLY those which are damaged by the bombs. That's not a problem actually, the important thing is that the effect works, only it's not that logical given the conditions and effects that I've applied.
Here's the scenario file. I even placed a tank and some marines.

[Shieldwolf]

Thanks for the scen. I see that you are using "Family" instead of "Class", and while this may work on some cases, they don't usually. For example, you have the B2-Bomber and Thor triggers: very specific objects from the Class instead of the Family, so the trigger effect will almost always work. Have you tried trimming down Tanks to a specific class, like the Centurion? You may want to do that: using specific classes instead of the Family. I just did and the explosions effect are flawless.

[t1m2n3t4]

Yes, "family" doesn't cover all the units it should(sampson was infantry melee, if I recall right, but had to be set as a separate object with "class" in order to make the scaling effect work). But if I use "class"(for every unit), I'll go nuts! That's why I decided to use "family" - to cover most of the units, and then specify those which aren't covered by the specific "family". B-2 Bomber(or Thor AT Gun) was just a test for the specific unit. To see the effect of it killing the infantry. As for Tanks - the effect works for M1, Sherman, Leopard, Centurion, so I think it works for every tank. I haven't tested if for each individual one.
There are a lot of details in the "Family" drop-down menu, like RPS units, Set: Citizen 1 or 2 and so on. Why so many and seemingly repeated?

Just a thought - is there a the point in using both family and class, if I can specify a unit only by its class? And there's another specification "Use unit". What is that for?

Edit: Hmm... yesterday I placed a few tanks and enemy marines and every one of them got the explosion effect upon shooting. Now I'm trying the same thing and the effect is present for only one tank. Hm... it could be the machine gun and maybe that tanks are shooting one target at the same time and it gets killed before the tanks shooting its shell or something. Maybe.
 And when I make the explosion trigger for infantry spear/melee - the phalanx gets blown right from the start by himself. Even when I set the tank stance to "wait for reload"(without having fired even once). In fact that applies for infantry sword as well. Perhaps every type of infantry except ranged is messed up like that. Because the effect works correctly for infantry ranged only.

[Shieldwolf]

What I'm trying to say t1m, is that Family doesn't really work that well, especially if you want specific graphic effects. You were telling me that using Centurion, the graphic effect is working for each one of them, but no, in my PT here, only a few graphic effects fired. Precisely because the scenario editor searches a lot of units under the Family, instead of a specific class. As far as I know, designers doesn't use RPS or Set or Family that much, since all of those are very broad, and may mess up effects that you want to achieve. Not to discourage you or anything, but I don't really feel the explosion effect is worth all the trouble you are putting into it. My opinion only though.

EDIT:

And here's some more tips:
- Your Object Hitpoints 0 to 99% will always fire, whether or not anything or anyone is near it, since you doesn't have any other condition with it. What I mean is that, for example, if you want a Tank near the Infantry to be killed, you need to check the LOS or near Tank in the object specification. If you don't do that, anything that happens to your object, any condition, as long as that object meets the HP 0to99% requirement, will fire the effect.

- Looping triggers will generate too much lag. I suggest having at least 1 delay to all those looping.

[t1m2n3t4]

So let me get this straight, having object specification to "family" will make the trigger look for ALL of the units that go under the specified family?
I'll try the HP tip, again. Maybe I messed up something before.
I have many triggers, as you saw. So what do you suggest - for every looping trigger to have for example:
0 delay for effect 1 AND 1 delay for effect 2 AND 2 delay for effect 3 and so on?
If so, then if every looping trigger has the same delays as the rest, won't that actually synchronize all of them? And just delay that total lag I might have now without set delays? 

[Shieldwolf]

Basically what the scenario is doing. The broader the Object specification is, the larger its scope. And the looping effect, that would be the case, if you have all of EACH of the units you have existing in any given time, then yes. The advantage of delaying it is that, only the units that are currently existing in that given time will be subject to the looping trigger, and not all of them, at the same time. Another variation would be the "On-Off" trigger.

[t1m2n3t4]

Jun 28, 2013 16:54:42 GMT Shieldwolf said:

And here's some more tips:
- Your Object Hitpoints 0 to 99% will always fire, whether or not anything or anyone is near it, since you doesn't have any other condition with it. What I mean is that, for example, if you want a Tank near the Infantry to be killed, you need to check the LOS or near Tank in the object specification. If you don't do that, anything that happens to your object, any condition, as long as that object meets the HP 0to99% requirement, will fire the effect.

Yes, but if I have a unit from 0 to 99% HP which should die when it's Near or in the tank LOS, and that unit is just passing by from somewhere towards the tank, what would happen? It'll die... unless I make the tank stance "wait for reload". But no, that way some random damaged infantry might blow up regardless if they meet the above mentioned conditions. It seems there must be a lot of conditions to be set in order for something complicated to work.

_____________________________________________
Jun 29, 2013 8:07:50 GMT 3 Shieldwolf said:
The advantage of delaying it is that, only the units that are currently existing in that given time will be subject to the looping trigger, and not all of them, at the same time. Another variation would be the "On-Off" trigger.
_____________________________________________

IF tanks exists
THEN effect(resource attribute) AND effect(graphic scale)
*Looped is checked/NO delays

When I build or place some tanks they will be currently existing and they will be subject to the trigger because the condition "tanks exists" will be met. The delay will be the same thing just - delayed. I suppose you mean that by setting delays the game will not lag that much if there are 8 players with 5-10 tank factories each, simultaneously producing tanks like crazy.
Is it OK to set delay "1" for every effect in a single trigger, or is it better for the delay value to be different for every one? Example:
Delay 1 effect 1 AND delay 1 effect 2 AND delay 1 effect 3
or
Delay 1 effect 1 AND delay 2 effect 2 AND delay 3 effect 3 

P.S. Hey, could you take a look at EEH - HappyHippyHarry's, I wrote a post there.

[Shieldwolf]

Jun 30, 2013 0:34:06 GMT t1m2n3t4 said:

It seems there must be a lot of conditions to be set in order for something complicated to work.

That's exactly why I am telling you that I don't think the graphic effect is worth all the trouble in triggers you'll be encountering.

As to the delays, that would be the case. The delays would help a lot vis-a-vis current frames-per-second calculations. It helps, trust me.

Or, like you said, you can time different loops to different delays, and that would be perfect.

[t1m2n3t4]

I see. I'll drop that tank shell explosion idea.
Could you tell me more about "Unit Variable", what's it for? I'm not very aware of its capabilities. Someone said on EEH that you can do anything with it but that's for those who understand its purpose.

[Shieldwolf]

Jul 4, 2013 20:45:06 GMT t1m2n3t4 said:

I see. I'll drop that tank shell explosion idea.
Could you tell me more about "Unit Variable", what's it for? I'm not very aware of its capabilities. Someone said on EEH that you can do anything with it but that's for those who understand its purpose.

Yes, the unit-variable in the Object Specification sections is a very neat trick to learn. For example, if you have 1 marine you want to create to be just there at the area you created him, and another marine to attack the player right after he is created, then you can use this unit-variable. Let's say the Hold marine has unit-variable 1, and the Attack marine has unit-variable 2. While you can create each and every marine with these specific tasks in mind, the unit-variable makes it easier for you to create both marines, at random, by having Object Specification Marine Unit-variable 1 to 2. Now, the editor then create units within 1 and 2 variables, and those units would either Hold or Attack, depending on your Effect triggers (which will look exactly the same effect you use when you are tasking any other unit). I use this a lot to generate army defenders and attackers in my scenarios. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Basically, use unit-variable to differentiate units, even though they are of the same unit. You can also use unit-variables as Counters (i.e., if Marine variable 2 is already 5 units, stop spawning), or implementing Experience bonuses (Veterancy) or Taxation or Consumption points, which, together with complex triggers, would be a nice way of improving (or as Soty would have it - complicating! ) a scenario. It really boils down on trial and error, and your imagination. Think of the unit-variables as "placeholders" of all things you want to be done, as long as you use them together with Unit-Variable Effects, found in the Effects section.

EDIT:

I hope I didn't blabber too much.

[t1m2n3t4]

I think I kinda get the idea.
You say "placeholder". What's that? Yesterday I saved a scenario with an atomic bomber shooting, and selecting the bomb which was a unit "Placeholder". And in the object panel - unit attributes, there's "total placeholder" etc.
I'm asking about these things to see if I can use them somehow, see their use. But really - I need to mess around with them to see what's what. But initial info for starters is useful.

Edit:
In the family panel there's "Placeholder0".

[Soty]

(or as Soty would have it - complicating!

haha that's true Although I must admit I use unit variables myself, as they are a really really handy tool.

[t1m2n3t4]

In the object panel I gave object specification "marine", In Area(selected on map), Unit attribute "Unit variable 1" min 5 max 5
In the effect panel - Unit attribute Graphic scale exactly 5
Trigger: IF marine exists THEN effect
Nothing happens.
---
I know how to make the marine bigger, I'm just trying that unit variable thing. Actually, I don't understand it.