zaia
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Post by zaia on Dec 20, 2011 14:23:07 GMT
The project that i've been pouring my soul into lately is basically another version of Venice v1.0, and mine is also set in the Mediterranean.
My basic philosophy behind my concept asked two main questions:
1) Empire Earth reflects strongly on the militaristic subjugation of an opponent. Since this is the focus of the game, there are a large number of military-oriented scenarios. What if a scenario could be made that requires a player to overwhelm an opponent in more than just one primary way- what if the player needed to conquer the opponent ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY, POLITICALLY and then PHYSICALLY. Surely it would make for a far more engaging conquering experience. How would I approach this using the tools Empire Earth has provided me?
2) Can i make a better scenario than Von Bert
~
I thought about it for a while, and I believe that my goal can be met, but it will require a buttload of time and patience to deal with the bugs, get everything to flow and most importantly, to BALANCE.
I made my first synopsis of the map:
- the goal is to make money - money can be made by harvesting resources and selling (trading) them with neighboring ai cities - some neighbors will have things you don't have, but things you need in order to prosper - you get reputation for good trade deals. High rep = increased business and money - you do bad things, you lose rep, less money earned from trade, rep gets too low, you get attacked
This became the core of the scenario. I've since expanded on this idea to include various other factors... it would be too exhausting for me to list them now but i do have nearly everything planned and organised.
As far as actual work goes, i've completed the physical map, with all cities and microenvironments (rocks flowers tall grass seashells etc)
I also set up the patrolling ai's ships and their own battle triggers I also set up the unit system for the resource transportation (to transport resources they needed to be in some kind of controllable movable medium that can be loaded onto ships. I used rams for this). At the moment i'm working on the basic tax system and getting that bug free. I'm pretty close i think, but its still pissing me off. I might go into detail with that in a bit
Here are just a handful of the features i have planned for this scenario:
- as epochs progress, cities grow larger and the environment changes (the ai is not active in this map) - calamities affect trade and will change how ai players interact with the human - the ability to tap into a global market and invest money and expand trade capabilities - supply and demand principles: items in high demand pay well, those which arent do not. Demand is determined by regional political, social and economic conditions (after a famine, the price and demand for food goes up, but supply drops) - option for changing governmental styles - monopolising trade - both regional and international - technology tree: you can combine basic resources to make new ones of increasing complexity and value - skilled units: use resources to build units, either for own use or for trade. Some units require certain technologies and resources before they can be built - historical events: my game spans from roughly the Bronze Age to Modern Ages, and historical events all occur throughout, providing both obstacle and opportunity for the player
My strongest focus for the map is its economy, followed by society. Politics is crucial to making your development effective and efficient, and military comes in last with lowest focus. I'm purposely making it difficult to win just by destroying your neighbors' capitols, because this kinda makes the game lame
As this is, i suppose, my main thread for the map's discussion, i'll be updating alot and, if its's allowed around here, doubleposting as well. I wanna use this thread as a means of getting all my thoughts out and for people to dissect them and sort things out/make them work. Feel free to ask questions about my map, nearly everything i want to do i've already figured out how to do, i just have to lay it all down, fix the inevitable bugs and make it all flow
I won't be releasing the scenario as a wip for evaluation etc... i'd really like for everyone to see this one for the first time in its 100% complete form
In terms of statistical data this is what i have so far-
314 triggers 760 conditions and objects 1160 effects 70 areas
By my honest personal calculation, i'd say this is about 1/20 of the finished work. Probably alot less now that i think about it some more. Either way all good though lmao
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Tal
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Post by Tal on Dec 20, 2011 15:09:50 GMT
Holy heck that is a big plan. Has anyone ever done something this big and complex?
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Dec 20, 2011 15:58:48 GMT
WOW! i have started something similar to this, but NOT as big as yours (1-ancient greece, 2-napoleonic wars, 3-game of thrones). my inspirations are from the Patricians games as well as the Zeus' and GOT Genesis. but not yours which spans Bronze to Modern. i hope and pray that you'll have huge progress in this scenario. i especially like to see how you'd implement the demand and supply system, as well as the political aspect of the game. anything you need from us, we'd be glad to help.
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Post by scutarilegion on Dec 20, 2011 16:24:58 GMT
I wish the best of luck for you on this project. It sounds quite a lot for one person to do on their own.
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Mr.UNleash
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Post by Mr.UNleash on Dec 20, 2011 19:49:49 GMT
I see you are expecting over 6k triggers ;D
Everything you described is extremely complex, so I hope that you would be able to cope with all the work. Good luck!
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zaia
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Post by zaia on Dec 21, 2011 1:23:43 GMT
Thanks for the help guys, i'll be keeping everyone updated with any new developments Truth be told, it took a while for everything to come together. Originally it was going to be much simpler, without the political and emphasis on the social aspect (and certainly the global trade system was going to be much smaller). But the more i worked with the triggers, the more I realised could be possible, so I started to add in the other facets to the game. I've spent the last few days writing up the game's manual.. it took a few days so i wasn't really working on the map per se, but it got down everything i wanted to feature in the scenario and alot of the statistical stuff I'll put up a few screenshots of some things so you have something you can look at EDIT: here they are! ^ This is your home city Venice (yes same city) ^ French city of Bordeaux, farmers at a vineyard ^ Northern Spain, some farms in foreground, Barcelona on the horizon. The large megastructure in the distance is the Sagrada Familia (may or may not be there in the early ages still deciding) ^ View of Rome, Coliseum at left, Roman Forum at right ^ Rural farms in Calabria, south of Rome ^ Palermo, Sicily... Mt Etna there (it will erupt during the game) ^ Athens, Temple of Olympian Zeus on left, Acropolis Parthenon and Propylaea on center-bottom right, Argos across the way in Peloponesia Resolution kinda sucks, but at least theres something to look at Got several more screenies, but will post a bit later
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Post by aleksandar on Dec 21, 2011 4:01:52 GMT
Wow. I am impressed.
I once spent an afternoon building something like this. I got pretty far, I finished the map, and a few cinematics and set up a few of the basic triggers. I got about 50 triggers. I may work on it some day. It was a good idea.
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Dec 21, 2011 4:48:52 GMT
i have seen that you have units/ buildings in AOC, so would that mean you're using AOC for this?
i strongly recommend you shifting to the EE orig, and not the expansion. by that, you'll have more downloaders to enjoy your work.
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zaia
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Post by zaia on Dec 21, 2011 5:31:02 GMT
Could I remove the AoC elements and have two versions of the map? Or will original EE still not like it even if i take out all the AoC stuff?
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Dec 21, 2011 5:59:51 GMT
based on experience, scenarios you made in AOC will be "saved game invalid" in EE, but EE scens can be edited in AOC. try to get the AOC elements out of the scen, and open it in EE. hope it'll be okay. if not.... i think you can save the triggers, but not the map.
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zaia
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Finally have a phodo!
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Post by zaia on Dec 21, 2011 8:23:05 GMT
I MADE THE TAX SYSTEM WORK
I AM INVEENCEEBLE
The tax system works by deducting resources on a periodic basis, but it charges per unit rather than as a single generic block. On paper this is very simple, but in trigger form it pissed me off greatly.
T1 - cycler trigger
ON TRUE FOR 30 LOOPING
IF always true
THEN Turn T2 on P1 var0 +1
T2 - turn tax triggers on
OFF TRUE FOR NIL NO LOOP
IF Always true
THEN Turn all the tax triggers on (can pay the tax) Turn all the triggers on (can't pay the tax)
T3 - Turn tax triggers off
OFF TRUE FOR NIL NO LOOP
IF Always true
THEN Turn all tax triggers off (both the can pay and can't pay ones)
T4 - i can pay tax (for 1 unit)
OFF TRUE FOR NIL NO LOOP
IF P1 pop count =1 P1 got at least 30 food
THEN T3 on P1 minus 30 food P1 minus 30 gold Message saying you paid
T5 - i can't pay the tax
OFF TRUE FOR NIL NO LOOP
IF p1 pop count =1 You got less than 30 food
THEN T3 on Get a message saying you can't pay Kill your citizens
T4 and T5 are repeated up to pop count = 40 and in resource increments of 30 up to 1200
I hope my system of writing out the trigger makes sense...
*NEW- say i have 5 units, 200 food
When t1 fires, t2 fires and activates t4
T4 resolves, i pay my 150 in food, and then this trigger activates t3. However, because i have 'less than 150 food' because t4 resolved, t5 is now firing and killing my dudes. T3 is resolving after t5 has already fired...
If i put a TRUE FOR 1 on t5, then by the time t5 can fire, t2 has already resolved and turned t5 off.
How could i isolate the 'i have enough to pay the tax' and the 'i don't have enough to pay the tax' triggers so that they aren't both firing and resolving at the same time?
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Dec 21, 2011 10:17:31 GMT
actually, there's a simpler trigger for this (used it a couple of times for my scenarios). you use the unit-attribute variable1 as the counter, and every time the variable changes, you pay tax.
regarding your question, be sure to have a "limiting" condition, specifying the triggers to fire ONLY if there is enough food.
if by the time i get home this is yet unanswered, il make a sample scen for your reference. FYI im in abu dhabi, so that would be GMT+4.
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zaia
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Post by zaia on Dec 21, 2011 10:52:04 GMT
All good bro, i fixed the problem
It's been bugging me for days now, but i'm glad it's over
Shieldwolf- explain to me how your method works.. i tried a setup using unit variables but it didn't work out well for me.... as far as i can remember (two days ago)...
~
I've started populating my cities with people and activity, hopefully soon I can actually start working on the real scenario xD
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Dec 21, 2011 11:03:20 GMT
im glad you fixed it. it may be easier to explain in scen format, which i will do once i get at home. besides, im at work, so technically, im robbing my company on time they pay me to work! haha
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Dec 21, 2011 13:54:15 GMT
okay. so here's the sample taxation scen.
every 30 seconds, as long as you have 100 food and 100 gold, you will be taxed according to how many units you own (excluding buildings). if your supplies are not sufficient, the unit that have not been taxed will be killed. also, if you have insufficient supplies for 30 seconds, ALL units not taxed will be killed.
although if i may suggest, don't kill the units outright, zaia. it's better to strike calamity (malaria) to represent disease because of lack of food, or let the units be owned by the enemy (representing desertion).
also, during the game, just make all the new features as subtle as possible. if you've played my "Tyrant" scenario, you will notice that having too many features and too much instructions and comments regarding them will only make gameplay tedious.
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zaia
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Post by zaia on Sept 20, 2012 15:41:09 GMT
Hey everyone!
I've been totally off EE since my old computer wasn't good enough to handle all the units and triggers from this scenario, and that pretty much totally put me off working on it
But in a couple of days my new computer will be here, and, as I have promised to myself, I am going to continue work on this! Very excited to see my scenario with fresh eyes, gonna be a pain in the butt picking up all the loose ends that I left off at. Luckily i put alot of comments and tags down in the trigger descriptions, so hopefully that'll help speed the process up
I can see there hasn't been much activity... Empire Earth is like one of those passive hobbies that comes and goes (certainly for me anyway).... but i've never lost my love for the original game!
In the time off i've actually come up with a couple ideas for campaigns, but not in this thread.... will save for when this monster is complete! I am very determined to see this one through to the very end... even if only a few people can appreciate and enjoy it, the satisfaction i'll have from completing the work and -making- it work will be more than enough for me.
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Soty
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Post by Soty on Sept 20, 2012 16:22:27 GMT
Welcome back. I agree with you that EE is a hobby that comes and goes. But every now and then I feel like doing something on it and design on some scenario.
I am looking forward to seeing your map.
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Sept 21, 2012 11:05:46 GMT
years for the scenario? i hope not! as long as you put at least 2 to 3 hours every week, and maybe toss in the scenario to me for any triggers you want done, i'm optimistic you'll be releasing it in a couple of month's time.
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zaia
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Post by zaia on Sept 23, 2012 15:36:24 GMT
Shitting myself at a gear grinding set that i need to put together
The supply and demand system
Basically, when you trade a certain resource to a certain city, its demand for that sole resource for that sole city goes down
There are 5 levels of demand There are 17 cities 30 different tradable resources
Fuk my laifu
2500 or so different scenarios total lol, can probs do 320 in a day before my head would fall off. Not all cities will buy every resource though (like one of the mid-saharan hut villages won't have a need for particle physicists lmao)
The supply/demand dynamic is probably the most fundamental aspect of the scenario, so i'm happy to put alot of work into making business -legitimately- unique with every ai city. I thought i wouldn't have enough variables to go around... certainly couldn't use player variables so i had to stick with unit variables (i ended up using the town houses and settlements and stuff to store them all... 3 out of 30 variables/unit).
The basic single trigger will look like this:
If You make a trade of X resource And The demand of resource X is at Y amount
Then Get money depending on what Y is And Decrease Y for resource X And Turn this back on so it can repeat
The passage of time slowly increases Y back up on its own, but triggered events move Y by entire chunks
The supply is less logical... it depends more on the scripted events rather than something more programmed
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Sept 24, 2012 5:19:30 GMT
now, i will be forwarding to you a scenario one of our guys here in EC and I have been in collaboration of these past weeks. since it's not yet done and i'm totally not at liberty to post it in public, check your personal message for the link of the scenario. there, i have triggered a simply demand and supply. maybe you could get some ideas there. if you still have questions, you could post it in this thread, and i'll make a sample scenario you could see. EDIT: by the way, you got me laughing on those references you have there above.
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zaia
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Post by zaia on Sept 26, 2012 3:27:17 GMT
Update!
Demand triggers are working fantastically! At the moment it's a little on the low-demand side (it's hard to get demand up above 600 (out of a possible 1000) but i changed the balance a little bit and hopefully the triggered historical events will push demand up as i get around to making them). I ended up laying down a hundred flags in a hidden zone and used their unit variables. So far only done the full demand and payment triggers for food and wood for a single player, but gonna do the rest of the basic elements today.
Added a new play dynamic. I'm having a problem in that once you get everything working, you kinda just sit there and watch your resources slowly grow, which is kinda crud, so i've added some new incentives to make money by keeping busy.
The first is sale of livestock. Every 6 game minutes or so you get control of random animals on the map. If you take them to the nearest town center, you get gold! But not only that, there's an extra bonus in that it also takes away some gold from your opponents too, so pretty useful to have access too, the animals glow when they come under your control, but you still have to kinda look for them.
I added physical goldmines to the map, for potential quick access to gold if needed. They only have 180 though, enough for 6 citizens x 15 carry x 2 trips, so not to be relied on.
Added a pirate ship plunder dynamic. I noticed there was a buttload of pirate ships spawning, and i mean heaps, and i have access to naval ships but never use them. So i made some triggers allowing you to plunder gold and wood from a pirate ship if you kill it. During testing i got so caught up trying to hunt down and kill pirate ships that i neglected my mines and farms *chuckle
There's enough framework there now for me to playtest a little seriously. I never get bored in that I don't have to run the gamut of cutscenes and plot development by travelling and waiting and building. It starts as soon as the opening cinematic ends and straight away i'm putting my economy together. I always end up getting distracted and playing the scenario for an hour xD Even if i hadn't made the scenario myself and was just playing it for the sake of playing it, i honestly believe this is one of the funnest empire earth scenarios i've played. I just NEED to get more gold for some reason :B
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Sept 26, 2012 4:52:35 GMT
I always end up getting distracted and playing the scenario for an hour xD Even if i hadn't made the scenario myself and was just playing it for the sake of playing it, i honestly believe this is one of the funnest empire earth scenarios i've played. I just NEED to get more gold for some reason :B You got me confused there. You made the scenario right, and you were just saying that if you are in other player's shoes, you'll find the scenario the "funnest empire earth scenarios i've played"? And I will agree. By the looks of your report, I'm excited to get my hands on it. I'm available for PT, if ever you want one.
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zaia
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Post by zaia on Sept 26, 2012 5:53:08 GMT
Like... if someone else had made it and i downloaded it to play, i'd have alot of fun just playing it and trying to make money
Killing pirates made it 100x more engaging. At least now there's something to kill looool. Haven't made any land enemies yet to track down and loot. Probably gonna add lots of miniquests to keep you occupied as you progress, but the main emphasis is always on the trade, so i need to keep it really interesting and give the player a desire to keep trading for continued returns
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Sept 26, 2012 10:17:45 GMT
yes. so add in some mini-quests (RPG-esque) with some robbery and raiders and others, and it'll complete it. Have you played Venice by Vonbert in EEH? That's the classic to beat. Good Luck!
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zaia
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Finally have a phodo!
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Post by zaia on Sept 26, 2012 17:51:24 GMT
I sorta played Venice v1.0, but i couldn't understand it a whole lot, and the map design frustrated me a little bit. But alot of very good concepts were there and they formed the basis of my own map. For example, the global market in my map looks nearly the same as the one in his, and to a certain extent, the same purpose. Many of the elements in Venice are present in Mediterranean Trade.
Surpassed 1100 triggers and 2750 effects.... my brain is melting from the tedium. So far no more bugs (amazingly), and i'm balancing the gameplay as i go along. I've fully completed the entire economy for the first four basic resources for all 17 cities... god i'm tearing my hair out and i've still got another 26 resources to do... but saving that for when i get to it. It's a relief to be able to work on more fun and creative triggers.
Looking at a big screenshot of the map.... thinking about how i'll make the landscape and the cities evolve as the epochs progress
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Soty
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Post by Soty on Sept 26, 2012 21:51:41 GMT
could you post a full map screenshot? ctrl + f9.
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zaia
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Post by zaia on Sept 27, 2012 6:14:56 GMT
i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx302/Serenade_1/EE003.jpgNo embed because it's a high res one Solved one of my biggest design challenges today. I realise that you can't make an ai progress to a different epoch when you tell them to, but i solved it by adding more players of different epochs and using their buildings to replace the old ones in the city i want to 'upgrade'. Working on the city 'evolutions' now... they start real small and isolated and end up real big and urbanised
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Mr.UNleash
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Post by Mr.UNleash on Sept 27, 2012 13:14:34 GMT
Nice map.
And sounds like its gonna be one huge fun scenario. Hopefully it doesn't surpass EEH's upload limit though :3
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Shieldwolf
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Post by Shieldwolf on Sept 27, 2012 13:26:17 GMT
in theory, that would definitely work. hope to see you pull it off. you're making history here.
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zaia
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Post by zaia on Sept 27, 2012 14:58:56 GMT
Thanks for the support guys =D
Playtesting it through properly, i get really tired micromanaging so many units. It's so much effort having to remember to do stuff and sending units to the right places and not forgetting that i put them there... fulfilling jobs and fighting and politics and geez ... its HARD. Granted, my micro sucks, but it was all in all quite exhilarating and exciting. I feel like i sometimes pick specific neighbors and get attached to them, favoring one or two cities over others and trying to develop my relationship with them. Most of the time i totally forgot to even send ships to the far off cities (even though i knew they massive bonuses to be had)... big world!
At the start of the scen is a little cinematic that kind of idealizes what the whole thing represents.. the ideal of expansion and growth and glory... i'll try to get a capture of it and upload for you guys to watch... and then later down the track maybe a gameplay trailer showing a couple of things
Just finished the first compulsory commission job- construction of the Coliseum! Have to do the skills unit sales triggers soon.... not going to have different demand levels for them- they will work on either a high demand/low demand basis, so the factors affecting their value is different to those affecting commodities
The win condition is now straight up 999 999 gold. First to that wins. I might make it lower if you choose not to epoch-up (gold earned in the lower epochs is exponentially lower than in later ones.... getting to 999999 in the atomic age modern is nearly twice as hard as doing it in the digital age..)
I alsol realised that the game sets its own difficulty level based on what you choose to do. If you trade with just one or two partners, the game can be quite easy to manage, but if you trade with all of them, holy hell good luck to the man who can keep THAT up
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